Skye Friday: Vanessa Hudgens Edition, a.k.a. I Go Public Like Jamie Lynn Spears

You can't get knocked up if music is your boyfriend, can you?

Er, anyway. Above you will find an inappropriate comment about a very talented, or so I've been led to believe, young woman's personal life. This reminds me of the halcyon days of September, when I wrote a brief (read: long) piece about Vanessa Hudgens. ("Vanilla Hudge.") In the piece, I assumed the voice of a k-pathetic blogger scorned by his middle school would-be girlfriends and said some nasty things about Facebook's probable role in the proliferation of mass-distributed n00d pix of Tha Hudge. In the comments section, Nia rightfully defended protagonist of the song and later on we had even more to say about it. I share it now in the interest of sparking further conversation about the BEST V-HUDGE TRACK IN THE UNIVERSE. Located above for reference.

THE CONVERSATION

Nia: When I said "Don't Talk" was magic, this was not exactly what I had in mind. "You've got to be patient with me" is the key line for me -- and wait, why are you so pissed at Vanessa's secret relationship, whereas you're all into Ashlee for not introducing her friends to her boyfriend in "Better Off"? Maybe because Vanessa is a little more menacing: "Don't talk or this all/song [whichever] will end, I promise. Be quiet, be quiet, or I will just deny it." Oh, all of a sudden you see why you have to be patient with her -- she's a little unstable, she will turn on you if she has to. And she knows it. And she's warning you. That's nice of her! I like that a lot better than Ashlee falling at some guy's feet. Vanessa's not gonna pretend to be powerless just because she likes you. Furthermore, Vanessa's not gonna blast that shit on Facebook; she is specifically telling you to not blast that shit on Facebook, because you know what, maybe she's got some shit going on, and she does not need everybody all asking her questions when she doesn't know the answers, and everything in her life is not all fucking about you, and why don't you just chill and let her decide how she feels, okay? Christ. Boys. They say we're too clingy. (Ashlee probably blasted that shit all over Facebook, meanwhile -- why do you think he friends keep asking about you? And like, every time you have a fight, she changes her relationship status to single so that little broken heart will show up in your news feed, and Vanessa's just rolling her eyes.)

Interesting how you automatically aligned with the guy and I automatically aligned with the girl.

I think eighteen is the age where these things start happening, anyway. Possibly because everyone is blasting their shit on Facebook.

Me: Wow I totally didn't see your comment, Nia!

I get a LOT of menace from this song, actually -- and the movie theater thing is actually something that happened to me (we saw Volcano), and I guess all I'm implying is that if she were a bit younger (not eighteen, maybe fourteen or so, and this isn't too far off, given her audience) she'd have a lot more control in this situation than the boy, who's obviously kind of a dork to be doing the "secret relationship" thing. At least from my experience (as a dork).

Ashlee's relationship in "Better Off" isn't a secret, it's just on the DL. Her friends know about it, and if they got caught at the movies by one of those friends, Ashlee'd 'fess up and just introduce him to them. What's charming about that song is that you get the sense that they've been avoiding public spaces for just that reason.

But what Vanessa's doing is much sneakier, almost the exact opposite--she's saying come to the movie, but then pretend we aren't a thing when you see me with my girlfriends. She's PLANNING on this to happen.

But here's the thing: in my experience, boys don't talk about relationships like girls do, because we don't know what the fuck is going on at any given moment. At least not at that age (again, this is just from my experience). The most I might have said about a relationship, secret or no, to my guy friends (even close ones) is "it's going pretty good I guess. I dunno." And then maybe some talk about bases 'n' stuff (in yr dreams). Because I was utterly oblivious and I got PLAYED.

she's a little unstable, she will turn on you if she has to. And she knows it. And she's warning you. That's nice of her!

Or she'll turn on you because she decided to turn on you. And she'll never tell you WHY, because that's just something she talks about with her girlfriends. I HAVE BEEN DUMPED THIS WAY MORE THAN ONCE.

Me (again): LOL at sustained bitterness from middle school romantic trauma.

I was once dumped like this: "David, do you like dump trucks? Because RACHEL does!" (Rachel being my current girlfriend, this being the third-or-so day of our far too short-lived relationship.)

I was also dumped behind school standing in a circle of my girlfriend's girlfriends. I thought she was going to kiss me. (WRONG.) (Then one of the friends followed and mocked me, I said something nasty to her about looking like a boy, she kicked me in the balls.)

I was also dumped at a party during a game of spin the bottle. Her friends then started yelling at ME (because she was crying) and I sat by myself until my dad picked me up. (The same girlfriend ran away from me when I tried to kiss her.)

I was also dumped after the initial betting period of one day had passed and the girl in question won whatever dare it was that got her to go out with me in the first place.

I've been dumped in notes, on the phone, via proxy, via second-hand gossip. I've been dumped as a cover for being not-dumped ("we can go out, but only in secret" ALARM BELLS!), I've been dumped again but f'real this time ("ok, now it's REALLY over" -- and this directly in response to my gruesome impression of a lion eating fried chicken at the lunch table, which for the record was hilarious). I've been dumped in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening. I've been dumped privately and publicly, sweetly and sourly, weekly, hourly (three times in one day once by the same girl!).

I'm not saying guys always have it worse than girls, or that I don't usually identify with the girls in these songs (in fact as k-runk has noted, I sekretly yearn to be one myself). And I broke up with girls, too (not as often, and never publicly) and they could have said some of the same stuff about me. But I am saying that there's a particular (oblivious and dopey) adolescent view of early (definitely pre-18) relationships that goes relatively unmentioned in teenpop. And I don't believe for a second that Vanessa Hudgens has ever been anything less than the most popular gal in school.


Nia: and the movie theater thing is actually something that happened to me

Really? Never would have guessed.

Her friends know about it, and if they got caught at the movies by one of those friends, Ashlee'd 'fess up and just introduce him to them.

You think. The song doesn't say that -- you find Ashlee more charming, so you think she'd do the more charming thing, whereas I think she's just as likely to be like, "Oh! Stephanie! This is my, um...friend. He was just leaving." The charm isn't in the song, any more than the snickering and the sitting two rows back and whatever else are in "Don't Talk."

What is different about "Don't Talk" is Vanessa's forcefulness (you do it her way or you don't do it at all) but Ashlee can be plenty forceful. I don't see how Vanessa is any more threatening than the girl who says "when you're crawling over broken glass to get to me, that's when I'll let you stay."

I mean, really, neither of us is wrong. We're both making assumptions about the situation based on our personal experiences. But something about the way you did it bugs me -- there's no real reason for you to be so hostile toward Vanessa but not toward Ashlee, and the fact that you brought up naked pictures on the Internet (and accused her of releasing them herself) within two sentences is just icky, you know?

But I am saying that there's a particular (oblivious and dopey) adolescent view of early (definitely pre-18) relationships that goes relatively unmentioned in teenpop.

Er, wait. I don't follow this logic. It never happens to people Vanessa's age, and nobody ever sings about it anyway...so obviously that's what Vanessa is singing about?

Me: I think that was a slip-up in how I worded those. I mean that the situation that I'm describing, that I'm reading into the V-Hudg song, doesn't get covered in most teenpop -- "I know *nothing* about relationships, because I'm a naive dork, and I thought things were going fine and then I got dumped, and now I'm sad but I still don't know what the hell's going on and will probably do it again so whatever".

Haha, I thought that it was ridiculous enough in the post (and that my "voice" there was overwhelmingly pathetic enough) that when I brought up the pictures that "icky" wouldn't come through quite so strong. I think it's probably just one of those terrible things that happens to people in the public eye, and don't actually wish any ill will toward BABY V.

I guess the sense I get in Ashlee is that, in "Better Off," she's really happy when she's with this guy, and whether or not anyone knows about it isn't the primary issue (as it clearly IS in "Don't Talk"); the primary issue is keeping things EXACTLY the same, so that it gets no worse and a little better each day. "What if we could just stay like this forever?" etc. I think it's mostly romantic!

Whereas in "Love Me for Me," you get the sense that they're BOTH fucked up, and more generally everything is fucked up between them, even the toothpaste. This is not a relationship they want to keep in stasis mode, it's relationship-as-earthquake. It's kind of the exact opposite (and back to back, which give both tracks a sort of contextual depth thrown up against each other like that).

So key differences for me between these examples are: (1) there is no context in which I can understand "Don't Talk," except maybe "Say OK," which I've never paid enough attention to to know what it's about exactly. Anyway, Vanessa doesn't present me with a person I'm particularly eager to read stuff into, which might be why I instinctively try to figure out who's on the other side of the equation (likewise with, say, "Complicated," where I wonder who the hell this guy ACTUALLY is, since I don't trust Avril's description of him at all). And (2), probably more important in this case, is that the guy didn't do anything wrong -- it's not "you're pushing your luck, buddy," or "I just know you're gonna fuck this up"; it's all on Vanessa, it's all about Vanessa. And when I think about this situation, I just kind of feel sorry for the guy for what he's about to get himself into (probably something complicated, something unpleasant). Of course the guy in "Love Me for Me" is in unpleasantness, but Ashlee's established that they both have issues, whereas Vanessa only says that she's got the issues. And I'm thinking, this is never going to work! RUN!!!!

"Oh! Stephanie! This is my, um...friend. He was just leaving."

But Stephanie knows she's dating "this guy," might even know his name (I mean, why not?). So if she saw Ashlee at the movie theater, she'd put two and two together. So THIS is the guy! And Ashlee'd be like, SHIT, now we can't enjoy Dante's Peak, but she wouldn't pretend she wasn't dating the guy. (Or pretend to break up with him on the spot only so she could do it again for real two days later.)

Couple other points: I like this scenario when I know the singer a little better. "Long Way 2 Go" has a similar premise: you think you've got me? You're not even close, pal. I don't think of the guy because I'm really really interested in the girl -- also, she sets the stage so that it's not a one-on-one scenario.

And that's the other point that I think is really the biggest one (now that I've thought about it for a few more minutes): Both V and Ashlee are presenting one-on-one worlds, but with Ashlee it's an INSULAR world -- the friends are a threat to their insularity, even the two of 'em are a threat to it (in "Love Me for Me," where the mere fact that they are who they are is what presumably makes them work and not-work at the same time).

V is one-on-one, too, but it's more like this guy is a CIA operative and she's his superior. "Here's your mission: date me without another living soul knowing, even your best friend [in the movie, it'd be "your wife" or "your husband"]. Fair warning, at any time you could get stranded and even I will deny you exist. In fact, as a test, I would like you to approach me at a dinner party and just watch how fast I deny your existence."

And V is also way more threatening than Ashlee: "be quiet, be quiet, or I will just deny it." I mean, that shit is COLD. Why doesn't she just say "Shut up, shut up, or I will FUCK YOU UP"!

So here's this guy who, even according to his superior (and she IS superior, because she's got all the cards in this song, and could just as easily deny they even had this conversation!), is (1) powerless and (2) waiting to see what happens. He's vulnerable in a way that she isn't. I think that's why I identify with him.

Again, if I knew Vanessa better, I might know that she's capable of being similarly vulnerable, and what I think you're rightfully getting at is that personal experience could fill in that vulnerability. But my problem with V in general is that I'm ACTIVELY uninterested in what she has to say, so even if she told me flat-out that she's vulnerable, I wouldn't really care. Whereas I know that Ashlee is vulnerable -- similar to how I imagine lots of people are vulnerable -- so that when she's strong or menacing or threatening, it's deeper because I know the stakes: at any time (most of the time, even) she'll be vulnerable again, hurt again.

And that also gets at what I'm missing in a lot of teenpop from the girl's perspective: boys can be really vulnerable in strange ways that go unspoken. We're not allowed to cry when we get broken up with, even if it happens in a circle of the girlfriend's girlfriends (and when we do, and we say something inappropriate, we get kicked in the nuts). We're not allowed to gossip and send proxies and do the other weird stuff that girls do in semi-secretive fashion. We're not allowed to set the terms of the "secret relationship," or if we do (and get found out), it's REALLY not OK. This is where it makes a big difference if you're 18 or 14, because at 18 -- by college, basically -- guys and girls have about equal power in doing this secret-relationship sorta stuff, where it's probably closer to "let's keep this on the DL, OK?" than "if you tell your friends I'll FUCKING KILL YOU and DENY IT EVER HAPPENED," and it can be as casual or as fucked up as it wants to be. But in middle school (even high school) it's girls who are usually able to set these sortsa terms to the losers who are dumb enough to go along with them (like me, repeatedly! And I wouldn't go back and change a thing even if I could!).

Nia: I don't know, I feel about "Long Way 2 Go" the way you feel about "Don't Talk." There's this expectation that the guy should chase after Cassie, even though there's no chance of him winning -- she complains that he never comes through (and proves his skills in the bedroom), but she cancels their dinner plans and says she's not into it. Bitch, he can't prove himself if you won't even talk to him.

Why doesn't she just say "Shut up, shut up, or I will FUCK YOU UP"!

I don't know, because that would be a fucking awesome song. Let's start a band and get on that.

Me: YES.

The thing I like about "Long Way 2 Go" is that there's no specific dude. It's just kind of an open challenge to all these guys trying to get with her, like it's written in a very unspecific second person.


Nia: But that's even worse! Vanessa's defining this (potentially) shitty relationship with one guy, and she justifies it by saying she wants to stay safe and let this thing build quietly; Cassie's brushing them all off at once, with no good reason. Per her lyrics: She's, um, got superior fashion sense? She thinks he's bad in bed? (How does she know? She won't even let him get in the same room as her!) And yet Cassie expects that whole gangs f guys are going to want to chase after her, inevitably. What a bitch.

Me: But it's just braggadocio, the stakes are actually quite low! This kind of nullifies the personal engagement. And say what you (er, I) want about Vanessa, she did get my attention and I'm interested in what else she has to say -- I'm interested in what else Cassie has to offer in terms of, y'know, awesome songs, but I don't have a totally clear sense of her. But that's OK.

Cassie might be a bitch, though I don't get that from her music really (in a way I get it from Rihanna for whatever reason), but Vanessa reminds me more of Avril, that there's something WRONG happening here in this brain. Again, interested, but wary. And feel sorry for whatever dude is messing around with her. (I feel worse for whatever dude in "Girlfriend" has Avril HARASSING HIM outta the blue in all her aggressive, dysfunctional cluelessness. I mean, what did he do to deserve it except pick someone who by default is probably a much better girlfriend than Avril? If I were him I'd get a restraining order. In as many languages as possible.)

More details as events warrant.

EDIT: For some excellent analysis of the appeal of Avril's aggressive, dysfunctional cluelessness, check out Kat Stevens's post on "Girlfriend" in FreakyTrigger.